Everyone is a felon
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Anyone got any braces for sale? I'd hate for you to be a felon....
I'll take them from you to dispose of properly....
I'll take them from you to dispose of properly....
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4,230 Posts
Funny. Braces aren't illegal. Braces are accessories and atf doesn't regulate accessories (uhm bump stock) haha
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270 Posts
Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. The final rule was published in the...
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270 Posts
I will be interested to see how this plays. They are rolling the dice here considering the SCOTUS WV vs EPA case last year. May be make or break time. Start calling, writing, emailing... If you haven't already.
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348 Posts
Unfortunately, I had a tragic boating accident and lost all of my braced and unbraced firearms... Truly tragic...
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2,206 Posts
let's hope. But it'll take years for a proper decision, in the meantime people have to follow this BS
The bump stock ban overturn was based on the same issue as the EPA case. The ATF tried rewriting law when it doesn't have the power to do so. Bump stocks do not turn semi auto firearms into machine guns. the firearm still fires only one round per pull of the trigger. The ATF decided that bump stocks did turn semi auto firearms into machineguns and the 5th circuit based their decision on the plain language of the law, that only Congress can change the definition of the wording, not a bunch of corrupt bureaucrats.
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166 Posts
Considering they estimate there are could be as many as 40 million braces in circulation - I think if this doesn't pretty much get paused immediately by the courts it will be one of the biggest examples of non-compliance in recent history. Since the ATF already ruled pistol braces were a-ok a couple years ago I think that will be one of the big things, along with them being "common use."
Funny how so many of these government organizations hold so much contempt and are weaponized against the law abiding citizens of this country. Also hilariously obviously not a coincidence that SB Tactical suffered a massive data breach exposing people who bought products from them mere days before the ATF published this B.S. If anyone thinks that the two aren't related - you need to think a little harder. It will never happen, but it would be awesome if the truth came out that the ATF or other government organization breached a private company's data to obtain records to create a registry of citizens who owned a product that by ATF's own admission is an "accessory" and completely legal to own.
Funny how so many of these government organizations hold so much contempt and are weaponized against the law abiding citizens of this country. Also hilariously obviously not a coincidence that SB Tactical suffered a massive data breach exposing people who bought products from them mere days before the ATF published this B.S. If anyone thinks that the two aren't related - you need to think a little harder. It will never happen, but it would be awesome if the truth came out that the ATF or other government organization breached a private company's data to obtain records to create a registry of citizens who owned a product that by ATF's own admission is an "accessory" and completely legal to own.
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2,606 Posts
This is simply because manufacturers wanting to panic people into buying something pushed it with atf forcing a decision on things they were making for an obvious purpose so they could sell more 3d printed crap telling americans look they gonna take it away from you. Atf could give two poops about your brace... stfu and you will never hear from them
I dont care if you have one or not but anyone who says braces were NOT designed to be able to be shouldered is FOS
I dont care if you have one or not but anyone who says braces were NOT designed to be able to be shouldered is FOS
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166 Posts
Going to completely disagree with you one this one. Commercial braces aren't 3D printed. Dunno if you own any, but KaK, SB Tactical, etc - all are normally manufactured quality goods. I own 3D printers, and I have never seen a commonly used brace sold being 3d printed.
Also, the ATF definitely cares about the braces - this is why two years ago or so they had a open forum discussing the legality of them when they started getting real popular, and why they released a 293 page "rule" on them Friday going against their initial "ruling" years ago. If they didn't "give two poops" then why are they forcing people to either register them,destroy them, or become felons? Did you even read the ruling? They have it out for pistol braces since the sales started picking up several years ago. They want to treat braced firearms the same as SBRs (short barreled rifles.) The SBR requirements are pointless enough as it is. Companies like SB Tactical don't need hysteria to sell their product - they have been rocking sales wise for the last 2-3 years and many firearms manufactures ship models with their products on them.
They are forcing these law abiding people to either register them, or destroy their property. Since the ATF can't even process Form 1s and 4s in an acceptable time frame it is completely laughable (and probably on purpose) that they think they can process millions of new registrations in a 120 day period with any form of competence. Also, if you fail to register or destroy your pistol brace - it is a felony w/ a max of 10 years in prison. For something they said was completely "fine" two years ago.
I don't know if you are "out of the loop" on these and the ATF's actions, or what - but you aren't correct even the slightest. This is a gun control measure that will affect millions of people who own a product that was legally bought, and a couple years ago was ruled to be completely legal by the ATF. This isn't a "we maybe will" - they are publishing this rule change and unless it gets held up in court it IS happening.
Here is a great explanation from Ian @ Forgotten weapons (who is local to AZ!)
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So do explain how the ATF changing a ruling, it getting signed by the AG, and being published next week that forces either registration or destruction of these firearms or possibly face felony conviction is a "narrative" to sell more pistol braces. You could possibly be correct if this wasn't already done. This isn't the typical "rattling the sabers" by anti-gun politicians about gun bans. This is done, it IS happening next week. It isn't a "maybe it won't" situation.
You claiming the ATF doesn't care about braces? False. Why backtrack on their initial determinations, then years later change the rule require registration? They have been working towards this for at least 5 years. If they didn't care they wouldn't have bothered after the first go-around. Even if it doesn't get held up in court, and becomes a "law" that isn't enforced - you better bet if you are caught with one because of committing another crime (related or not) it will be used to throw a bigger book at you. Nothing good comes of this unless it is (hopefully) struck down in court (and who knows when that will be finished.)
is False. The most common manufacturers have no issue selling them as it is. Also none of the big manufacturers "3d print crap" to sell, SB Tactical, KaK, MFT, etc - none sell "3D printed crap." Also, unrelated - there is nothing wrong with 3D printing. Done right it is a perfectly viable manufacturing means. The ATF was trying to change their definition when they were uncommon years ago. This isn't the democrats or the president rattling on about "needing to ban" something - this goes into effect next week, it is a done deal till / during the lawsuits.
False - When they had an "open comment" on braces a couple years ago - there was so many comments from people they didn't make the change then. When they released the form to determine if your firearm was indeed an SBR - they had 270k people say the form was unacceptable vs ~20k in support (and 18k of those were from one organization - watch the recent video from Washington Gun Law to see that.) They pulled the form. "STFU"ing is the worst thing you can do. Not expressing your opinion to your elected officials who control these agencies is why we are stuck with the stupid "laws" we have. If you are implying that people should just ignore the new "laws" and carry on -that is fine, but that doesn't work for a lot of people who have the mentality of it isn't worth non-compliance to lose my rights if caught with an "illegal" SBR after this ruling goes in effect (again, next week...)
Nice of you to add to your post :
- The brace popularity and it's complete lack of being used in crime just further proves the SBR/SBS/AOW system in places since the thirties is pointless regulation. Watch the forgotten weapons video I posted. He addresses all this very concisely. The ATF itself said shouldering a brace doesn't make a gun a SBR and now they are backtracking on it. You are missing the point.
The fact of the matter is - worse case scenario for "gun people" is this thing goes into effect as planned next week, loses in court and we get a bunch of free SBRs as long as they were made before the rule is published and submitted to registration in the 120 day period, but we are now on a registry that severely limits the transfer, manufacture or modification of braced firearms and at any point in the future laws are passed making them illegal they know who has what for confiscation. Middle of the road case is it loses in court, and goes away for another few years and things don't change. Best case scenario is it goes to court, loses, and reignites the battle to remove SBR/SBS/AOWs from the NFA registry and that happens.
The fact is this is one of the biggest gun control moves in recent history. With 10-40 million of these things in circulation it affects millions of citizens.
I always love it when someone says something factually untrue, then someone rebuts it with the actual fact - and instead of just saying "oh, I didn't realize it was that" you get the "okidoki you enjoy your narrative I'll enjoy mine. Peace out" slink away statement.
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Not slinking away chief. I have my beliefs you have yours. I am willing to accept your version of what you believe and leave it at that. Never once suggested registering them and welcome you to point out where I said register them or turn them in. What I I am not willling to get into a dick measuring contest over differing beliefs on why it's happening so enjoy your day.
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166 Posts
You said :
Which is untrue. This ruling has been in the works since the braces were barely a thing. This has nothing to do with "selling more 3d printed crap" and everything with the ATF exerting itself on law abiding citizens. Also, after this goes in effect next week and the 120 days are up - companies like SB Tactical are going to be in a ton of trouble. Their product which was "free market" now will require the same process to own/use as a SBR/SBS/AOW to use. So tell me how it is going to be a sales boon to them when their $50 dollar brace requires a fingerprint, FBI background check, a year wait, and $200 "tax" stamp? This new "law" is definitely not going to increase their sales. If this new "law" wasn't really going to be a thing - you would be possibly right. However - it is a thing. It has "passed" and it is going to go into effect. I bet the sales of pistol braces will plummet the minute the new "rules" are officially published (again...next week.)
They don't care - yet literally just "passed" a "ruling" that will become "law" that makes people who don't comply felons. They have been working towards this for at least five years. So tell me again how they don't care about the braces? They don't care, they just published a 293 page ruling, got the AG to sign off on it, and will do all the work of processing the millions of registrations - cause they don't care........ Yeah, sure thing buddy - they don't care and this whole thing is going away.......................LOL.
Here you go : Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this explains the new rules since you seem to be in denial that all this is just something that won't / isn't happening.
There is no dick measuring here skipper, your original post said you believe this is a "narrative" to sell more braces, and the ATF doesn't care about your braces. Yet the ATF literally just released a rule change, that IS becoming "law" that requires people to either register, destroy, or be a felon. There is no "differing beliefs" because this IS what happened. So either you aren't explaining your point very well, or you just can't grasp the fact that they have now made owning a braced pistol the same as an SBR/SBS/AOW the minute it is officially published next week. There will be a bunch of lawsuits working towards pausing it - but that isn't a certain thing.
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2,206 Posts
Gentlemen, we're on the same side. Ricky isn't a gun-grabber and he's not against braces or the ATF's #1 fan-boy. He fully understands that they're designating braces as the same as SBR's for all intents and purposes. He's playing devil's advocate and pointing out, somewhat rightly, that if the pistol brace manufacturers wouldn't have asked the ATF for clarification they likely wouldn't have been AS gung-ho to go after braces. We all know the ATF will come after whatever they can, but asking permission is a great way for someone to tell you no. That's why the whole "better to ask forgiveness than permission" saying rings true quite often.
Regardless, they're coming after them now, and there's three options. Comply, contest the "law" (really an ordnance) in the legal system, or.... Keep your mouth shut and go on about your business.
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