First part is great and I got a good laugh. I roll with my ruger super redhawk just in case. I hope I never have to deal with that.

The letter to the state is great. I hope those certain ranchers chill out and fix their roll. Not cool. I have had great experiences with all the ranchers and game wardens I have encountered so far. Ton of things the State needs to do to support AZGFD and us hunters. This would be one thing that could help

 

Chief, I like the letter but one of the problems I have run into is not covered with this or with other laws, at least that I can find. In a number cases in 35B outside of Patagonia access to Coronado NF is cut off by private land owners. It's a case of the CNF sits behind private land and there is no way to cross private land to get to the forest service land. If it were a case of gating public land, I would be cutting locks off also but in this situation it is private property. There is an area east of Patagonia where more than one land owner has gated the road as it enters their property this shutting down a road that leads to a forest service road on the other side of their property and there is no way to get around. G&F had agreements with several of these land owners and probably because of rude people driving the private road, they closed it off.

Basically, there needs to be some law that requires land owners to allow access to remain open especially if that access was there for many years and on a whim the land owner decides to close it. Case in point right now is Vaca Ranch. I guess they did not like all of the traffic accessing the area to the north of their land and they closed it off. There are efforts to work around it because Vaca had said they are not changing the closure.

Another note with this. Do you have a copy of the directive telling Game Managers they do not have to call citizens requesting info? If so or there is some documentation somewhere I would like it so that I can call G&F directly and voice my concern.

 

G&F had agreements with several of these land owners and probably because of rude people driving the private road, they closed it off.

I don't know if it's the case with that situation in particular, but I'd read somewhere about outfitters going in and paying the ranchers to block access to public land that used to be freely accessible through private crossings.

On a side note, G&F posted a video recently about this presumably to address and issue that took off on Facebook about this. I thought it was funny how the one guy mentions "my ranch" like the leased land is his to allow who he pleases. He thinks you need to ask his permission to hunt public land because he put locked gates on it.

It seems like their only legitimate gripes are people leaving trash and shooting up water tanks. I wonder a lot of times if all this trash getting left out is really hunters or an immigration thing. I've been out and seen areas where those guys roll through and leave all kinds of crap. It's hard to imagine most hunters leaving trash all over the place or destroying property. I'm sure there have been a few hunter out there that do it. You're going to have some slobs no matter what, but you can't shut out everyone because of a few.

 

Montana hunters and fishermen are fighting long running court battles not just over gated roads, but also on denial of access to streams that are considered by the Corps of Engineers as "Navigable waters of the United States". Such streams are allowed as open access to all between the high water lines. In this case fishers are denied access with fences and gates too. Some land owners are even closing trails to USFS and BLM lands that had been in use for over 100 years. Much as I hate to say this, these property owners seem to want to turn everything they touch into Texas!!! In my opinion. JM

 

I have a friend in Texas that just paid a little over $6K to "hunt" a buck on a "Preserve" this Whitetail looked like a water buffalo. But if you don't own a LOT of land or have a hunting lease your public lands are extremely limited in Texas. This had me really worried when Ducey wanted to raid the State Land Trust.

I agree with Chief 100% and I am not looking to stir up stuff but if I know I am in the right then they can get mad all they want and I will leave when someone with a Badge tells me to do so. I will request their name and badge number and politely leave and report their ignorance as high as I possibly can.

I think access is a much bigger threat to hunting than it is talked about. I know we all love our firearms but they're constitutionally protected but our access is not and a hunting rifle isn't of much use without access to hunting grounds.

 

There are probably enough hunters that we could raise a few hundred thousand to buy a strip of land to connect public lands and then hand the deed over to azgf. Permanent legal easement.

 

Or to tie into another thread use the super point to buy access.

 

https://www.onxmaps.com/blog/landlocked-public-lands-onx-trcp-improve-access

http://www.trcp.org/unlocking-public-lands/

Few links in case anyone you havent seen it before. The facts of the matter.

We are currently locked out of 243k acres of public land. I am all about doing what "I CAN DO" to help but this needs to be a huge mass of us to get it done. Huge group effort needs to happen. More of a time, place and AZ congress reps to be involved with us. Always easier said then done, but we all have to hope on board. Best dates would be when there is hardly any hunting going on, outfitters and guides also on board. We all can be like Randy Newberg and fly in a helicopter to landlocked land or over private land. lol

 

I am all about doing what "I CAN DO" to help but this needs to be a huge mass of us to get it done.

Do you guys have a website setup for this? I'd be willing to build and host it for free.

 

There is some good work being done in SE AZ between Southern AZ Quail Forever, G&F and the Forest Service in efforts to open up land that has been closed to access but this is not the only area or issue. It is going to take having more political backing to make this happen.

I understand land owner rights. They are just as important as gun owner rights but when property owners hold public land for ransom something needs to be done to open OUR land back up.

 

That is something to figure out. I will ask some of my guide buddys if there is anything set up and relay back to you

 

VTinAZ has a couple of web sites that are probably already set up for this and the
http://www.trcp.org/unlocking-public-lands/ has a form to sent to the politicos. That might be the place to start. I am going to fill that one out and send it with my comments.

 

Yeah I posted the same link earlier and totally agree with ya

 

Yes VT I mentioned that and thanks for posting. I filled out the form and you can, and I did add your own comments in the message. Basically at the beginning of the message I added a comment along the lines of our conversation here.

 

If a landowner has illegally closed an access road to the public land its a simple matter to discover. Go to the county assessor and find out if the road has been vacated. If not then you can begin legal action to get it opened back up.

 

In the cases that I am familiar with the closing have been legal and that is what causes the problem. It's their land so short of fighting a eminent domain process we are stuck at the gate looking in. I know from the minutes of some meeting with local hunting groups, G&F and the FS, they are working on moving some roads but in a number of cases there is nowhere to move the road and dealing with doing anything with the FS takes years of studies, hearing, white papers and just general federal government snags.

 

In the cases that I am familiar with the closing have been legal and that is what causes the problem.

If you have private property that's landlocked by other private property the court will grant easement if you can prove you own it and the easement is reasonably necessary. It seems pretty straightforward on both those points where the public is the owner.

 

There is some good work being done in SE AZ between Southern AZ Quail Forever, G&F and the Forest Service in efforts to open up land that has been closed to access

Lynn can ya give me one instance where SE AZ Quail Forever was successful in getting private land opened to ALL types of hunting? SE AZ Quail Forever, in my opinion, is about SE AZ Quail Forever and that is all. Maybe Big Tub can chime in here I think he is/was active in the organization.

Private property owners must post their property at all vehicle entry points, every quarter mile and at four foot heights. They can also color code their fence post at the quarter mile instead of posting the no hunting signage. I use to call quite often in that stretch of road between Patagonia and Sonoita that Lynn talks about and yes a lot of it is privately owned but not near as much as the ranchers and individual home owners would want you to believe. I would find a place I wanted to call in, I would crawl under the fence and start calling. If the alleged property owner came out and told me to leave I would. However I would remind him of those requirements I just mentioned and tell him that I would probably be back. If we as hunter have rules and regulations to follow so do the ranchers

I FOR ONE WILL NOT BACK DOWN FROM THESE SOB'S NOR SHOULD YOU. YOU WILL DIE OF OLD AGE IF YOU WAIT FOR THE POLITICIANS TO DO ANYTHING IN YOUR FAVOR.

 

Private property owners must post their property at all vehicle entry points, every quarter mile and at four foot heights.

I know you have posted that before and I am not doubting you but can you quote the ARS that covers this?

 

Thanks for that and I had to go back and look at notes that I was sent about land access issues in Santa Cruz Co but I think Hogg Canyon was one that they were able to get opened to access. I admit I don't have all of the info or details and I am going off of meeting notes.

 

Thank you D265, I also found the copy that I have typed up and laminated to show these so called property owners who think they own the whole state. I think I'll copy yours it's smaller and more "legal' looking.

Okay lynn your turn what has the quail folks accomplished - other than talk a good game, or just helps the bird hunters.


Hunters are permitted to enter onto land unless lawfully posted. Signs must be at least eight inches by eleven inches with plainly legible wording in capital and bold-faced lettering at least one inch high. The sign must have the words "no hunting", "no trapping" or "no fishing" either as a single phrase or in any combination. The signs must be conspicuously placed on a structure or post at least four feet above ground level at all points of vehicular access, at all property or fence corners and at intervals of not more than one-quarter mile along the property boundary. A sign with one hundred square inches or more of orange paint may serve as the interval notices between property or fence corners and points of vehicular access. The orange paint shall be clearly visible and shall cover the entire above ground surface of the post facing outward and on both lateral sides from the closed area.Hunters are permitted to enter onto land unless lawfully posted. Signs must be at least eight inches by eleven inches with plainly legible wording in capital and bold-faced lettering at least one inch high. The sign must have the words "no hunting", "no trapping" or "no fishing" either as a single phrase or in any combination. The signs must be conspicuously placed on a structure or post at least four feet above ground level at all points of vehicular access, at all property or fence corners and at intervals of not more than one-quarter mile along the property boundary. A sign with one hundred square inches or more of orange paint may serve as the interval notices between property or fence corners and points of vehicular access. The orange paint shall be clearly visible and shall cover the entire above ground surface of the post facing

 

Thank you D265

I became familiar with these laws after I started using onx. I've found some of them aren't real honest about their property boundaries and I've found some that are dishonest about what is and what isn't private. A couple spots around where I like to hunt/scout/goof off have public roads that lead up to the private land, but are in fact public. They've got signs up to make it look like the whole stretch is private.

I haven't had any problems with locked gates in there, and to be honest I don't mind too much because it keeps all the ATV's out of there for the most part. But it's nice to know where you stand legally if someone wants to challenge you about it.

Something I've never got clarification on but always wondered about is the legality of putting signs on public land if you're not in an official position to do so. Like I said, some of them I've used to my benefit but some really toe the line of outright lying.

 

See post 27

I know they have been meeting with G&F and NFS. Ask them for meeting minutes. There may be more going on than you think.

 

I have been reading this thread since it started and I have a question, not sure if it has been answered or not. If a private property owner has a marked forest service road running through their property can they block it off? Or do there have to leave it open because it is a forest service road.

I think the more I start to hunt and explore the different units around the state the more I will understand this type of stuff. I have only ever hunted national forest land and state trust land.

 

I have been reading this thread since it started and I have a question, not sure if it has been answered or not. If a private property owner has a marked forest service road running through their property can they block it off? Or do there have to leave it open because it is a forest service road.

I think the more I start to hunt and explore the different units around the state the more I will understand this type of stuff. I have only ever hunted national forest land and state trust land.

NFS roads are public rights of way that can only be blocked for public safety issues such as fires, washouts etc.

 

Its a shame the private RICH landowners are allowed to do this, Im sure G&F would like to change those rules, But we all know, They are strapped for cash it seems.

 

I see both sides - the land owners have had issues with folks letting cattle out. Coronado Forest has a workable solution and appears very interested in improving access. Anyone interested in more detail can PM me with your email and I can forward more info.

 

I see both sides - the land owners have had issues with folks letting cattle out. Coronado Forest has a workable solution and appears very interested in improving access. Anyone interested in more detail can PM me with your email and I can forward more info.

ZACK,
Send the info to Chief please. I was trying to explain the efforts that are on-going to solve these road problems there but the meeting minutes are not "mine" so did not want to forward material that was not authored by me.

You might even see about posting the info here as a sticky or something similar. Your group has been doing good work to open these roads and that info should get out to interested parties.

 

This is long but it contains a wealth of information on what is happening to open roads closed by private land owners. The information is courtesy of Zack May and is the minutes of Southern AZ Quail Forever. There have been several meeting since this information as SAQF works with various government groups and land owners to reopen roads. The only way there will be a resolution is if we all work at making it happen. Thanks Zack.

Two gates have been locked by private landowners south of Patagonia that have closed road access to over 30,000 acres of public land mostly in the north part of San Rafael Valley. Brittany Oleson from AZ G&F reported this to me over a month ago but I did not fully understand the overall impact until I went down with her to view the gates and the land. There is a more detailed writeup on each closure, potential mitigations and maps provided below. This is a bigger deal than Hog Canyon as it represents much more land and we always had access into Hog Canyon from the north. This highlights our need to be respectful of private land and make sure our actions do not impact their owners. We need to be mindful about closing gates, picking up our trash, ruining roads and keeping our speed and dust down.
What is being done:
-G&F has discussed this with both landowners to no avail - neither landowner seems interested in pursuing any agreement that would allow access. G&F has offered improvements and other consideration to the landowners in exchange for access.
-Raul Vega the regional G&F supervisor is meeting with Kerwin Dewberry the Coronado National Forest Supervisor to discuss potential actions that might provide alternative access.
-Raul has also suggested that I meet with Mr Dewberry.
-We are advising other wildlife and outdoor groups of the issue.

-Based on the initial response from Mr Dewberry we may work a more aggressive phone call and letter writing campaign to get action. I will keep you apprised as this progresses and will ask for help/action as needed.
Overview of Closures

Meadow Valley

-Access into Meadow Valley and Bog Hole Wildlife Area via FSR 765 was locked mid-July 2018; access required driving across private property on the Vaca Ranch. This closure was legal. The locked gate is located at 31.460138, -110.650745.

-The closure prevents vehicular access to miles of USFS roads and limits foot access on approximately 14 square miles of public land, including important areas for hunting (whitetail, mule deer, quail, and waterfowl) and for birding (waterfowl and riparian birds). The AZGFD Bog Hole Wildlife Area, typically accessed by FSR 5534 from FSR 765, is no longer accessible by vehicle and can only be reached by a 1.5-mile walk across the grassland from FSR 58.

-AZGFD reached out to the local ranch manager, Travis Nevins, to inquire about the gate. They were told the closure was primarily due to the gate being left open and cattle getting out.

-AZGFD offered to install a cattle guard to alleviate the concern while restoring access, but was told the ranch was not interested in access agreements.

-Access could be restored by constructing a new FSR 765 route that goes around the western end of the Vaca private property parcel that the current FSR 765 transects. Total length of new road would be approximately 1.15 miles depending on topographical constraints.

-An alternative requiring less road construction would be a land swap with the Vaca. The current parcel is a rectangular shape with the northeast corner missing and the equivalent amount of land added onto the northwest corner. If the USFS could swap land with the Vaca, thus moving the northwest "tab" of private into the northeast "slot" of public, the private parcel would then be a complete rectangle. A new road paralleling the existing fence could be created; this would require 0.65 miles of road creation on easy flat grassland.

-A less desirable option to restore access would be to create a 1.5-2 mile road from FSR 58 across USFS land to the existing FSR 765 north of the conflicting Vaca parcel. This road would be longer than the previous options but would likely be easy to construct out in the open grassland.

-A second private Vaca parcel to the north blocks access to FSR 4689, which used to provide access to Saddle Mountain but no longer exists. Saddle Mountain can still be accessed from FSR 765 via FSR 5530 and requires no additional reroutes.
Map demonstrating new 1.15-mile alternative access route for FSR 765, going around the private parcel from the locked gate, and potential land swap option that would reduce new road required to 0.65 mile. Private property is white, while USFS property is green.

Red Rock Canyon

-Access into Red Rock Canyon via Red Rock Canyon Road (FSR 138) was locked mid-September 2017; access required driving across private property on the Byrum Ranch. This closure was legal. The locked gate is located at 31.550103, -110.711865.

-The closure prevents vehicular access to miles of USFS roads and limits foot access on approximately 36 square miles of public land, including important areas for hunting (whitetail, bear, javelina, quail, and turkey) and for birding (yellow-billed cuckoos).

-AZGFD inquired about the closure and was told it was in response to the USFS rerouting a portion of the Arizona Trail (AZT) in the area.

-AZGFD attempted to enter into an access agreement with the landowner, but the two parties could not agree on terms. Access requires the public to drive one quarter of a mile through the landowner's corrals, passing within 60 yards of the ranch headquarters.

-Sign-in boxes and access signs placed when the ranch was owned by Richard Collins (Collins C6 Ranch) were removed and replaced with "NO THRU ACCESS" signs in August 2018.

-Access into Red Rock Canyon could be restored by securing an easement from Highway 82 across Rosemont Copper property north of Sonoita Springs; this is the area where the AZT is proposed to be rerouted through Corral Canyon, and roads connecting the Rosemont Copper property to existing Forest Service roads in Corral Canyon (such as FSR 4600, and FSR 4601). Little to no road creation would be required to restore access in this manner, though some roads would likely need repaired due to years of limited use. A new trailhead could be created for the AZT.

-With creation of a short section of connecting roadway on Rosemont Copper property to get around a small private parcel, FSR 5743 (which spurs off of FSR 4600) joins to FSR 5744 which in turn connects to FSR 4604 and provides access from the Papago Springs area off Highway 83.

Map showing project location and scope of issue. Note locked gate on only public road (Red Rock Canyon Rd) into the Red Rock Canyon area.

Map showing Rosemont Copper parcels (yellow) that could be utilized to create an access easement. Existing roads could be utilized to connect to FSR 4600 and FSR 4601 (both roads also yellow then green), thus providing access into Red Rock Canyon.

Map showing existing roads, starting at Highway 82, that could be utilized to cross Rosemont Copper property and provide access to Red Rock Canyon. Rosemont Copper and other private parcels shown in white, USFS in green. Continuation of FSR 4600 on USFS land is not highlighted.

Map showing the roads in the Rosemont Copper property area that could be utilized.

Zack May
Southern AZ Quail Forever
Chapter President
zmay@comcast.net
cell 520.301.8135

 

More from the December 14 meeting:
-Brit Oleson our local game warden talked about trespassing and landowner posting requirements in Arizona. Arizona law is different than most states in that if a landowner has not properly posted his property for no hunting or trespassing it is legal to go onto the property - in most states it is a hunter responsibility to seek permission to enter private property. A courteous hunter will still work to obtain permission when able. The brief will be posted on the web.

-Brit and Walt Keyes who is the Coronado National Forest (CNF) Road Manager discussed the road closures in the San Rafael and the effort to regain road access. The focus will be building new roads to bypass private property. A couple of potential new road routes have been identified after preliminary on site assessments.
The next step is for the District Ranger to approve one or more of these routes before starting an environmental assessment. Actual road construction could be as little as two weeks but it will take months or year for the environmental assessment. Our next meeting with G&F and CNF is in Feb - we will provide an update then.

-Johnathan Odell is the interim small game manager for G&F. He provided an update on a planned meeting of the Western Quail Working group which will be in Sonoita in Feb. This working group is made up of state game biologist from most of the western states. He also gave us an overview of the plan to relocate some Gambels Quail from golf courses in the Phoenix area to Avra Valley in our area. He has 5 interns available to work this project.

 

Lynn,

Thanks for posting. Anyone with questions should feel free to contact me.

Zack

 

Lots to read here--thanks for the information!